Interview: The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navanethem (Navi) Pillay

Graeme Innes: Hello and welcome to Podrights, or this week Vodrights, a series of podcasts from the Australian Human Rights Commission. I'm Graeme Innes, the Disability and Race Discrimination Commissioner.

This week Australia has been privileged to be visited by Navi Pillay, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. Ms Pillay was the first woman to start a law practice in her home province of Natal in South Africa in 1967. She acted as a defence attorney for anti-apartheid activists, exposing torture and helping establish key rights for prisoners on Robben Island. After the end of apartheid, Ms Pillay was appointed as Acting Judge on the South African High Court and in 2003 she was elected as a judge on the International Criminal Court. She has been involved in many organisations promoting the rights of women, children and refugees. She commenced her present role as High Commissioner in September 2008.

So welcome, High Commissioner, and I'm pleased to fit a chat with you for Podrights into your busy schedule.

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here.

Graeme Innes: Firstly, can we talk about your work in South Africa. What challenges did you face being the first woman to start a law practice in Natal?

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: Well, I think I faced treble challenges. One was the obvious ”‘the race. Nobody would employ a black woman. I was told by white firms that they can't have a situation where white secretaries had to take instructions from a black lawyer. And, of course, class. Many lawyers said, "Well, is your father a businessman? You have lawyers in your family? What can you bring to the office?". So if you were poor, you didn't get those opportunities. And, of course, gender mostly was, "Well, we can't hire you. What if you fall pregnant?". So in the context of apartheid, I think women of colour were doubly and trebly disadvantaged.

Graeme Innes: Whilst not wanting to diminish the violence and deaths which occurred in South Africa during the apartheid regime, regime change was achieved, particularly in present contexts, relatively peacefully. What was it like to be part of that change process?

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: I don't think we would have achieved a change, and peacefully, had it not been for international support and, of course, great leadership from Nelson Mandela. You know, I used to go to Robben Island as a lawyer. I didn't really meet him. I met other clients. But I'm fully aware of the numbers of times he was offered the opportunity of release, provided he agreed to this and that conditions, which means forgoing his principal struggle against apartheid, and so I truly respect somebody who was willing to stay incarcerated for 27 years on the grounds of principle. And this is what he showed even in the transition to democracy. I want to also take the opportunity to acknowledge the huge support we got from ordinary Australians who protested against playing international cricket and rugby with South African racist teams. All that helped.

Graeme Innes: I'm interested in your role in the development of an equality clause in the South African Constitution because that's something that's been discussed in Australia recently. What has been the impact of that clause on the exercise of rights in South Africa?

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: Firstly, my involvement was through the Women's National Coalition, so it was the women who organised themselves overriding all the differences amongst us, so it was not only people ”‘ women in the African National Congress but women from Afrikaans churches and so on, and we realised that we had to get together to protect the rights of women. We drew up a document. We didn't have any idea of how far we could take that document, and eventually to our delight, it was incorporated as a Bill of Rights. That's the principle of equality and the principle of affirmative programs to address the previously disadvantaged people. That's very important. You can't just say equality for everyone when the vast portion of the population, meaning the black people, had been historically disadvantaged.

The other very important clause there is that the traditional systems were also recognised and given a spot, but it could never trump the equality clause in the Constitution. So where there are traditional systems that do not recognise equality for women, that would not prevail against the Constitution.

Graeme Innes: That's a very important point, of course. Can I come now to your work as High Commissioner. Pro”‘democracy uprisings in Egypt ,Libya and Syria have raised concern about regime responses to protesters and the treatment and safety of those fleeing from the conflicts. As High Commissioner, what are you able to do to protect the human rights of those involved in those conflicts?

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: Firstly, I issued statements immediately supporting the right of peaceful protest and condemning the violence used by those in government against the peaceful protesters. It's still going on in various parts of that region, which is causing me great concerns, in Syria and Yemen for instance. And we said that it was human rights that's at the heart of the protests, what people were asking for, aspirations that Australians take for granted here ”‘the right of freedom of speech, the right of democratic government, freedom from corruption. In Tunisia, the calls were for bread, human dignity, civil and political rights, social and economic rights. These were what the protests were about and we were immediately invited to come into the countries of Tunisia and now Egypt. So it's human rights institutions that would be set up first in Tunisia. I've sent two human rights advisers. I'm going to open a country office there at the request of the government and Egypt has now invited us to open a regional office and, of course, we are providing the secretarial support for the Commission of Inquiry which is investigating the possible commission of crimes in Libya, and Cote d'Ivoire for that matter. We are also sending a Commission of Inquiry into Syria.I hope that they will let this Commission in.

Graeme Innes: So some good practical opportunities to raise the profile of human rights. That's great. The UN High Commissioner for Refugees has raised concerns recently about the many people who have drowned whilst taking ships to flee the Libyan regime. What sort of involvement have you had in this area?

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: Well, I work very closely with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, and together we advocate a human rights”‘based approach to the reception of asylum seekers coming in from across the sea, in boats or across land, and we want migrants to be valued, asylum seekers to be treated as human beings. They don't lose their human rights just because they are moving from country to country for whatever reason. You can't stop the movement of people. From time immemorial, they have sought opportunities or they are fleeing from danger. They come with great hope to the receiving state and they should not be seen as a threat.

Graeme Innes: There have also been serious allegations made against the armed forces in Syria and the way that they're dealing with protesters. You have talked about some of the things that you're hoping to do in Syria, but what sort of issues have you been able to pursue with the Syrian government?

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: The unique mandate I hold as High Commissioner For Human Rights means that I have the power to monitor situations and we are very much in touch with the activists, both national and international, and we have issued statements where we've tracked the violations, mainly the killings. I've had meetings with the Ambassador, who has given me a figure of the number of police and security who have been killed, but our information is that it's largely civilians. I've known people who have been killed, that's in Syria and Bahrain by the way.

I'm now waiting to send in this Commission of Inquiry, which will be headed by the Deputy High Commissioner. This is as a result of a direction given to us by the Human Rights Council to investigate the events that are unfolding in Syria and to report in June to the Human Rights Council. So I'm really going to wait for the outcome of such an investigation. Irrespective of whether we're allowed into Syria or not, we will be filing a report.

Graeme Innes: Turning to another area, to what degree are you concerned at the suggestion arising mainly from the execution of Osama bin Laden that counterterrorism has given really a licence to ignore international law?

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: You know that the United Nations Secretary”‘General has said that the United Nations condemns terrorism, and he welcomed the killing of Osama bin Laden as justice having been done, echoing what President Obama has said, and I issued a statement repeating what he said, that the United Nations condemns terrorism, but pointed out that the United Nations has very strict counterterrorism measures, and so any measures taken to counterterrorism must comply with international law, that whatever people have done, they're entitled to a fair trial, they don't lose their rights.

Above all, I said that proper information should be made available because, without information, none of us can determine whether it was legal or illegal killing, and eventually it's for a court of law to decide on the evidence, although I acknowledge, like most people, that I have no doubt that had Osama bin Laden been arrested, he would have faced very serious charges of crimes against humanity.

Graeme Innes: As the wave of social media revolutions are taking place, you've called for new governments in Egypt and Tunisia to ensure that full women's rights are enshrined in their new Constitutions. Could you comment further on that? Can such rights be granted and still be in compliance with Muslim law?

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: We are very much in touch with the civil society organisations.They're particularly the women's organisations in Egypt and in Tunisia, and they are determined to achieve full freedom and equality on women's rights. They're drawing up programs. And we will be urging the Government, as we assist them in drafting suitable laws, to comply with international standards with regard to the rights of women.

Graeme Innes: Finally, High Commissioner, let's come back to Australia. What messages have you delivered to the Australian Government regarding the improvement of human rights in this country?

Navanethem (Navi) Pillay: I have delivered the message that, in large measure, the rights of Australians are being protected here by the Government, and those who are most vulnerable are women and marginalised persons, asylum seekers and migrants and the poor. Their rights need much, much greater protection. I visited the Aboriginal communities at Yarrabah, outside Cairns. I've met with 40 Aboriginal leaders from the whole of the Northern Territory. I met with the Chief Minister, who told me about the large amount of money that is being invested by the Federal Government to improve housing in those areas. But what they tell me is that the intervention has failed, their situation is worse, they want a say over their own matters, not merely consultation but in decision making. In other words, they want the right of self”‘determination over their own affairs.

And I was really saddened by the level of poverty and the disrespect for the dignity and rights of indigenous people. They feel that they're being stereotyped unfairly, as alcoholics and child abusers, but really essentially they want to be able to run their own clinics and their services. And these are some of the messages I conveyed. I urge the Government to look at alternative measures of addressing the issue of asylum seekers and migrants, that mandatory detention should be discouraged as the treaty bodies have already told the Government. The recommendations that are coming out from the Human Rights Council by other member states to Australia also urge the Government to come up with alternatives rather than mandatory detention. I'm really surprised at the amount of money the Australian taxpayers are paying just to detain people who've come here with such great hopes and want to be able to make a contribution in this country. I think that migrants and asylum seekers should be valued rather than being treated as criminals, and these are some of the messages I conveyed.

Graeme Innes: Well, thank you, High Commissioner, so much for this opportunity to chat. Your visit to Australia has been most informative for us and hopefully informative and enjoyable for you as well. And thanks to all of you watching and listening to Podrights. Remember that this podcast is for you, so if you have a suggestion of someone with whom I should talk or a comment on the podcast, please email me at podrights@humanrights.gov.au or find me and message me on Facebook or Twitter. Just search for 'Graeme Innes', G”‘R”‘A”‘E”‘M”‘E I”‘N”‘N”‘E”‘S, and keep your podcatchers ready for the next Podrights in the series because human rights is for everyone, everywhere, everyday.

I'm Graeme Innes. Goodbye for now.